pre existence of the Son

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Instead of letting the Bible express what it means J.W.s and others who promote the Father only as God use their cultic interpretation making their own rules for Biblical hermeneutics.

Heb.1:2 states that God... has in these last days spoken to us by his Son whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom he made the worlds. "this agrees with Jn. 1:3 " all things were made through him and without him nothing was made that was made." All means all, not all other things as the Jehovah witnesses insert in Col.1..

The same Son that is speaking to us now was present at creation. This is the same Son that was in the bosom of the Father before any thing was created Ex Nihilo. Hebrews 1:2 tells us that God made the worlds through the Son. The Son had to have existed before anything was created, to create everything that exists, so does the Father.therefore they are both uncreated.

Ps.33:6 By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth

vs.9 For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast." Christ is the word. Ps.148:1-6 "For he commanded and they were created." Col. 1:16-17 Speaking of the Son, "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.This means he is not one of those things created if he is before them.

Here we find the consistency of the New Testament of his preexistence as the creator yet as Heb.1:2 says it was through him God made everything. We can see the Sons role was not a secondary one but primary, that creation was from the Father- through the Son- and by the Spirit. The Father as the source created through the Son who is the agent and the Spirit was the power.

Heb. 7:3 the author of Hebrews describes Melchezidek as one without Father or mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest forever." Here he is giving the comparison of Melchezidek as a type of Christ in that he always existed. He also parallel’s the eternal priesthood and the Son as an eternal being without beginning of days or end of life. The writer of Hebrews used the three most important subjects to the Jews, the angels, the high priest, and the resurrection and we find the Son who is compared to them all, is superior. All of these were earthly examples of heavenly truths.

In Dan.7:9,13,and 22 he writes about the ancient of days which indicates him as the Father. In vs.13 we read about another called the "Son of man" who in vs.14 is called the most high (also verses 18, 22, 25, 27). The Son of man is seen in a vision as coming to the ancient of days, with the clouds of heaven vs.13, this correlates with Rev.1:7 as the clouds usually refer to glory.

The Son of man is given:

1)a dominion of everlasting length vs.14

2) a kingdom of everlasting length vs.14, 27 this correlates with Isa.9:6-7 in which the Son will rule.

3) Glory vs.14 this correlates with Jn.17:5 and Matt 16:27 ""For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, "

4) that people of all nations and languages would serve him v.18, 27 this correlates with Rev.22:3-5 "His servants will serve him . John 12:26"If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

Daniel is told the saints of the Most high would posses the kingdom which we find from Daniels writing that this is the Son of man. We find the scriptures clearly mentioning Gods kingdom as the Sons also.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, …but now My kingdom is not from here." Here Jesus claims the kingdom is his and that he has servants in it. Yet it has not come yet on the earth. Acts 1:6 "Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"(Also Mt.24)

Ps. 22:28 "For the kingdom is the LORD'S, and He rules over the nations. Ps 103:19 "The LORD has established His throne in heaven, and His kingdom rules over all. " Ps 145:13 "Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and Your dominion endures throughout all generations. "Isa.9:6 attributes all this to the Son who is the mighty God.

Matt. 26:29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." Jesus equates himself with the Father in sharing the kingdom with another.

2 Pet 1:11 "for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "Peter write that it is Christ's kingdom as he is the Son of man who inherits it.

Matt 16:28"Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Mt.16:13 "When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?" Peter receives a revelation from the Father "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God." The Son of man is therefore the same person as the Son of God. Yet each describes a different facet of his nature.

Rev 14:14 "Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.

John 6:62 ""What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before." The Son went to the place he previously was before becoming a man. This is the vision Stephen saw in Acts 7:56 "and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"

We find the phrase one like the Son of man in Dan.7:13 who sees Jesus in his post resurrection form. This corresponding to Rev.1:13 who says in vs.17 is the first and the last :18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore" vs.8 is the Alpha and Omega and the Almighty. All these are descriptions of Jesus who will be the one the saints serve in his kingdom.

In Micah 5:2" But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler (shepherd) in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Here is God speaking of another person who is from eternity past and will be the (ruler) shepherd in Israel, we know this is the Lord Jesus himself, the Son born in Bethlehem. To deny this is to refuse the word of Gods clear teaching of the shepherd Being the Lord of Ps.23. Notice that he will come forth to God and yet he too is eternal making the Son and the Father two different individuals.

Heb.2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the Angels..."How was he made lower, by nature? No, by humility in his position. Is this speaking of his humanity, No , because we as humans are already lower than the angels. So it is speaking of his position he took as a man, he is one person with two natures, he did not lower himself in only one nature but came as a servant as one person.

Heb.1:4: "having become so much better than the angels." How by nature ? No, by exaltation at the resurrection. He already was better in nature before his incarnation being deity the very one who created all the angels.

Heb.1:5: "For to which of the angels did he ever say "you are my Son today I have begotten you" Here the writer is proclaiming the Son as superior to angels. Angels who are the greatest of Gods creation and the Son is better vs.4.

How? Because he as the Son is of the same nature with his Father. This should shut down any thought entertained of Jesus being an angel as the J.W.’s claim. Actually the whole of chapter one and two of Hebrews compares him to angels and he is superior. Vs. 5 to which of the angels does he say you are my Son. Vs. 13 to which of the angels did he say sit at my right hand. In Heb.2:5 It states "He has not put the world in subjection to angels." If the world is subject to Jesus then he is not an angel. God did not put an angel in control of all things.

Heb.1:6 The Father tells all the angels to worship the Son. Do they worship his humanness ? Or do they worship God the eternal Son. To worship any creature except God is forbidden, yet here we have God the Father telling the angels to worship the Son. This certainly should settle the issue that he is an angel or only a man. Otherwise he is promoting idolatry!

Heb. 1:8 God the Father says to the Son " your throne is forever and ever." Does a human have a throne that is forever or is it God ? The J.W’s go the furthest in this saying God is the throne, this means he’s become a chair. Vs.10 the Father still speaking to the Son "and you, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the Earth and the heavens are the work of your hands..." This agrees with Jn.1:3 Heb.1:2 , Col.1:15-17.

Someone is confused here, how is it possible the Son is not really Lord or God if the Father calls him such. If Jesus is the same Son of all these scriptures in Heb.1 maybe its just as the Trinitarians have been stating the Son is eternal. The cults can do the Chubby Checker dance of twist and shout but they will never remove the eternal Son from the book of Hebrews or the rest of scripture," thy word is settled in the heavens forever".

In Prov. 30:1-4 Agur writes asking what is his name? Which in the O.T. would be the four letters in Hebrew YHVH pronounced as Yahweh or the title of Lord. He then asks the last question and what is his Son's name if you know? This is in the present tense so it is not a prophecy, he existed when this was written. What this is teaching is that God has a Son whose name has not yet been revealed, yet in the future the prophets would write about him. Unfortunately there are those today who still don't know it by influences from their group or self inflicted theology.

The Old and New testament teach that the Son was there before the beginning. ( Jn.1:1) The term beginning refers to time and space, when the universe began. So if the Son was already there, he belongs to the order of eternity. This is exactly what is expressed in Jn.1:18 the only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father.

The early church’s theologians and apologists had clear teachings in defense of the Son existing prior to creation. Irenaeus Stated "Now it has been clearly demonstrated that the word which exists from the beginning with God, by whom all things were made, who was also present with the race of men at all times, this word has in these last times, according to the time appointed by the Father, been united to his own workmanship and has been made passable man. Therefore we can set aside the objection of them that say, ‘If he was born at the time it follows that Christ did not exist before then. ‘For we have shown that the Son of God did not then begin to exist since he existed with the Father always: But when he was incarnate and made man, he recapitulated (or summed up) in himself the long line of the human race, procuring for us salvation thus summarily, so that what we had lost in Adam, that is, the being in the image and likeness of God, that we should regain in Christ Jesus". ( Irenaeus The ‘Recapitulation’ in Christ :Adv. Haer. III xviii)

John the Baptizer certainly thought of Jesus as eternal, remember he was born 6 months before his cousin. In Jn.1:15 he cried out" this was he of whom I said he who comes after me is preferred before me for he was (existed) before me . After John announces Jesus as the lamb of God he writes in Vs 30 "this was he of whom I said," He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me,". John the Baptist was actually older than Jesus so this is a clear reference to preexistence. He then testifies of him to be the Son of God which sums up equality in nature, that he is eternal.

Isa.9:6 says, He is the everlasting Father. Oneness Pentecostals use this to prove he is the Father and not the Son. Others ignore this verse purposely. But it is speaking of the Son who is called Wonderful (Hebrew- Pele) this is exclusively used of God alone, it means unable to comprehend indescribable. Counselor, Mighty God (Heb. El Gibbor). In Hebrew he is called the Father of ather of eternity in Hebrew Abi-Ad . Among the ancient Hebrews the term Father of, was always used to indicate him who possessed the thing that followed. For example the Father of strength -means strong; the Father of knowledge -means intelligent, the Father of peace -means peaceful, the Father of glory -means glorious. So the Son is called the Father of eternity meaning he is eternal, he is the source of all things and can give eternal life. This is not a literal Father nor a literal Son but terms describing a relationship. This is a relationship by nature not by origination.

In Lk. 3:22 We see God the Father speaking from heaven declaring him his Son in Lk.3:23 traces the genealogy of Christ backward from Mary back to Adam. connecting Jesus as the seed of the women that would crush the serpents head Gen.3:15. He then goes into tracking him in the genealogies of man tracing mankind to their origin, back to Adams supernatural creation. Lk.3:38 "The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the Son of Adam, The Son of God." Many say that this is Adam called the Son of God, not according to the sequence. Here we have the Son of God as the source of Adams creation. Christ being the source of his life, who had existed before him and proving it was his hands that made him. As the last Adam Jesus had a supernatural birth his body directly overseen and prepared by the superintending work of the H.Spirit who is God. Adam the first man from the ground, Christ the last Adam from Gods hands from heaven. So both were made supernaturally without the normal means of conception.

Adam was the natural headship over the human race. Christ the last Adam is the spiritual headship over the human race. By Adams sin death came to all people by Christs death this penalty was reversed and eternal life in the body is given to all people who receive it by him

Rom.1:3 "Concerning his son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead." According to his flesh he is called the "Son of David" According to his person of nature he is the "Son of God."

Rom.8:3 God sent his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, so the Son already existed and took on humanity. We also see a distinction between who is sent and the one sending. What it does not say is that he made the Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Giving him have a beginning on earh.

1 Jn.1:2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) The question is, did this life already exist in the Son or was it deposited in the Son. 1 Jn.5:10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 Jn.5:20: "And we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ this is the true God and eternal life." eternal life." Jn.1:2: "He was in the beginning with God all things were made through him... In him was life... From this we see this life is a he which is a person. Again in vs. 10 "He was in the world, and the world was made through him. This is the same he and him that is previously established to be with God (vs,1) and is God.

These are excerpts from the book (binder form) The Trinity Defining and defending the Trinity among the Defining and defending the Trinity among the cults




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